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ed_rexFor that matter, are there rules anymore?
Saturday evening, I had a young woman over for dinner, a woman with whom I have now met in person 4 or 5 times. She is beautiful, she is passionately intellectual, she is more talented than she gives herself credit for and she can be very funny indeed; we enjoy one another's company and typically find ourselves surprised the time has passed so quickly.
She is also (yes, again) a great deal younger than I am, and one who is not, apparently, given to easily-readable body-language. She tends not to look me in the eye, she holds herself close.
From the tangible facts, I know that she likes me. We have gone out a number of times and she came over to dinner on Saturday. She also knows that I think she's beautiful (which, to me, implies an interest beyond mere platonic friendship). She has a boyfriend (of questionable long-term prospects), but also told me she considers herself polyamorous.
But beyond the tangible facts, I have no idea what she thinks of me.
What does it mean, ladies, when a man invites you over for dinner? Does it mean anything? Do you expect a pass? Think a pass might be made?
Am I an idiot to even be asking the question? (It's true: had she been within 10 years, with all other factors the same, I would have made a move. Am I being condescending in being so much more careful simply because the woman in question is so much younger than I am?)
I am curious as to whether you, my gentle readers, have insights into the general question - what are the rules? Is an invitation to dinner an invitation to dinner, or a tacit understanding that it is also at least a willingness to explore the idea of taking the relationship to a physical level?
When we were sharing a couch, should I have made a pass, or should I have waited for at least some kind of explicit signal she wanted me to?
I have, by the way, expressed my regret (at having not taken the chance) to the woman in question, so I expect I will soon know what she thinks of my questions - and of my cowardice/gallantry. But I am nevertheless curious to know what others think is the proper behaviour in such a situation.
And of course, I am terrified of checking my email. But checking it compulsively I am nevertheless.
If nothing else, I feel wonderfully alive.
Cheers!
Saturday evening, I had a young woman over for dinner, a woman with whom I have now met in person 4 or 5 times. She is beautiful, she is passionately intellectual, she is more talented than she gives herself credit for and she can be very funny indeed; we enjoy one another's company and typically find ourselves surprised the time has passed so quickly.
She is also (yes, again) a great deal younger than I am, and one who is not, apparently, given to easily-readable body-language. She tends not to look me in the eye, she holds herself close.
From the tangible facts, I know that she likes me. We have gone out a number of times and she came over to dinner on Saturday. She also knows that I think she's beautiful (which, to me, implies an interest beyond mere platonic friendship). She has a boyfriend (of questionable long-term prospects), but also told me she considers herself polyamorous.
But beyond the tangible facts, I have no idea what she thinks of me.
What does it mean, ladies, when a man invites you over for dinner? Does it mean anything? Do you expect a pass? Think a pass might be made?
Am I an idiot to even be asking the question? (It's true: had she been within 10 years, with all other factors the same, I would have made a move. Am I being condescending in being so much more careful simply because the woman in question is so much younger than I am?)
I am curious as to whether you, my gentle readers, have insights into the general question - what are the rules? Is an invitation to dinner an invitation to dinner, or a tacit understanding that it is also at least a willingness to explore the idea of taking the relationship to a physical level?
When we were sharing a couch, should I have made a pass, or should I have waited for at least some kind of explicit signal she wanted me to?
I have, by the way, expressed my regret (at having not taken the chance) to the woman in question, so I expect I will soon know what she thinks of my questions - and of my cowardice/gallantry. But I am nevertheless curious to know what others think is the proper behaviour in such a situation.
And of course, I am terrified of checking my email. But checking it compulsively I am nevertheless.
If nothing else, I feel wonderfully alive.
Cheers!
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 02:35 am (UTC)I Did, I Did ...
Date: 2006-11-21 02:38 am (UTC)thinkknow I'm too damn polite (or cowardly - take your pick) for my own good.Re: I Did, I Did ...
Date: 2006-11-21 02:40 am (UTC)Be gentle with yourself.
Re: I Did, I Did ...
Date: 2006-11-21 02:45 am (UTC)Incidentally ...
Date: 2006-11-21 02:40 am (UTC)Re: Incidentally ...
Date: 2006-11-21 02:46 am (UTC)Re: Incidentally ...
Date: 2006-11-21 03:19 am (UTC)Re: Incidentally ...
Date: 2006-11-21 11:31 am (UTC)Re: Incidentally ...
Date: 2006-11-22 12:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 02:58 am (UTC)I'm a bit shy when it comes to romance unless I've had a lot to drink, and I usually do expect the guy to make the first move (yeah, yeah, patriarchycakes), and I can usually tell when a guy is going to make a move. I have a lot of totally platonic male friends, many of whom are older than me, and I've been shocked more than once when someone's made a pass within a relationship that I considered completely non-sexual. Again, because I'm shy, I seldom make a move unless I know the guy's attracted to me.
Sometimes an invitation to dinner is just an invitation to dinner. But asking is good. It doesn't so much demonstrate cowardice as it does respect, IMO.
I Don't Mind Your Answer At All
Date: 2006-11-21 03:15 am (UTC)All but the first - which was a "we've known each other online for ages, let's meet - could have been Dates, could have been dates. In my mind, they were - sort of - let's see if this leads to Dates, then became, I really like her, I wonder what she thinks?
Her body language has always been unreadable, at least to me. She is either very reserved, or she's not interested at all. (Ooh. I don't like the sound of that, last, clause.)
Was there other furniture in the room where she decided to share a couch with you?
She moved to the couch. I - after much internal dialogue - joined her there. She neither welcomed that move nor recoiled from it. So far as I remember, her body language didn't change.
...I've been shocked more than once when someone's made a pass within a relationship that I considered completely non-sexual.
Had they previously made it clear they thought you were attractive?
Sometimes an invitation to dinner is just an invitation to dinner.
And - god bless complexity - sometimes it's both. A great deal of my hesitancy was due to the fact that I was (and am) afraid that making a pass might make her run from me entirely. I like her. I want to get to know her - and to continue to know her, whether or not something sexual and/or romantic happens between us.
But asking is good. It doesn't so much demonstrate cowardice as it does respect, IMO.
Well, I suppose - here comes that fucking complexity again! - it was both respect and cowardice. And good old fashioned manners, come to think of it - a good host doesn't want to put his guest into an uncomfortable position.
(Sometimes I really do love livejournal, you know?)
Re: I Don't Mind Your Answer At All
Date: 2006-11-21 03:30 am (UTC)Sometimes, sometimes not. In one case, it was a guy I'd been friends with for years and thought of as a mentor. He'd never said, "Oh, I think you're hot," but he did compliment me on my brains and good politics, qualities that he valued above looks. ;) But since I thought of him as a friend and a mentor, not as a potential lover (and when we met, we were both in serious relationships with other people), I didn't take this as an indication that he was attracted to me.
In another case, I totally should have noticed and didn't. But in fairness, I flirt with a lot of men—and women—and a lot flirt back, without any party intending anything more than that.
This said, unwanted passes don't scare me off friendship, unless either a) I make it clear that I'm not interested, and the guy doesn't take the hint and gets all creepy, or b) it's clear that he's interested in me only as a lover and not as a friend. Otherwise, people are attracted to other people all the time and it isn't always mutual. It doesn't hurt to try.
Best of luck, by the way.
Re: I Don't Mind Your Answer At All
Date: 2006-11-22 12:31 am (UTC)That last sentence is why I'm kicking myself, of course. I hope she feels the same way, now that I have tried, in what is probably the most unromantic way possible.
Best of luck, by the way.
Thanks. I fear I'll need it.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 03:07 am (UTC)Good Point
Date: 2006-11-21 03:18 am (UTC)That makes a lot of sense. One of the things that confuses me, is that I have a long (and irritating) history of mis-reading body-language - so I distrust my instincts.
Re: Good Point
Date: 2006-11-21 03:22 am (UTC)a) impossible to read
or
b) incredibly easy to read
which may explain why i am also one to misread body language ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 03:36 am (UTC)When I was working on Hockeyville, there was a guy that I worked with who was a good... 25 years older than me. But we really clicked as people. He was super fun to hang out with... and being on location, there were only so many people that you could hang out with from night to night. We were slightly flirty, and I actually told him a lot about my love life.
Anyway... it was all fun :) So, one day in the summer, after Hockeyville was over, we decided to do dinner and a movie. He treated me to the movie (I tried to pay, but he wouldn't let me... I think I bought snacks) ... and then instead of going out for dinner, he decided to make me BBQ on his smoker back at his place (we had many discussions about the smoker LOL) ... this whole scene developed with neighbours calling firetrucks and whatnot (don't ask LOL) but he called me over to where he was standing, further in the apartment... and then asked if he could kiss me. I said I didn't think that would be a good idea, because we might have to work together in the future, etc etc.
At that point, we hadn't eaten dinner yet. I'm not sure why, but through dinner, he decided to make me *completely* uncomfortable, though I tried not to let on... I would laugh 'n stuff, by saying stuff about how he wanted to fuck me, and how I'd be a great lay, and all this other stuff. I was pretty floored, cause I *SO* wasn't expecting that.
Anyway, for me, it wasn't a huge deal. I pretty much forgot about it within a day or so. But every time I emailed him after that (I sent maybe 1-3 over the past 4-5 months or something) he never wrote back.
So, honestly... I really don't know the answer to your question. Maybe it makes me a tease that I was being flirty with him, etc, but when it came down to it, wasn't open to something actually happening? Maybe I thought we were both on the exact same page, and I didn't think it would actually come to a head? Maybe once you cross the line, there's no going back? Who knows...
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-22 12:52 am (UTC)One of the things I've learned over the years is that, once you're out of school, friendship is hard. It takes time to get to know a person and it takes even more time keep knowing them.
When you two were working together, you hung out. After, you had dinner and he decided to act on his (more than understandable) attraction to you. I'm guessing that, when you turned him down, he just decided to cut his losses - not out of anger, but out of busy-ness.
As a counter-example, I've met a number of people in person via livejournal. I've liked each and every one of them, but have only had repeat meetings with a few (hi Sean!). And even there, when both parties are working, when there is no social group in common, both parties need to decide that a non-sexual/romantic relationship is worth pursuing.
And when I count the number of friends I had in high school who have just ... drifted out of my life, well, the mind boggles.
Maybe it makes me a tease that I was being flirty with him, etc, but when it came down to it, wasn't open to something actually happening? Maybe I thought we were both on the exact same page, and I didn't think it would actually come to a head? Maybe once you cross the line, there's no going back? Who knows...
Who knows indeed. Only he does, I guess.
In the case of Girl Saturday, I think I would pursue a platonic friendship (which, more or less, is what I've been doing), if she is willing to deal with the tension of knowing that I am also interested in her in other ways. But, to be truthful, I would also probably put less energy into it.
Life really is too short, you know?
(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 04:05 am (UTC)Oh Hell Yes!
Date: 2006-11-22 12:55 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-11-21 09:02 am (UTC)If she is anything like me, (which she may not be so this is not as much advice as possible insight) then she may just be waiting for the mood to be right. She may be on the fence about you for whatever reasons and not want to try to sway you in either direction, but may be pleased to find you interested in her, provided you show it in a pleasant way. This can be a delicate thing, for me it's a mixture of sublety and honesty-- which sounds like a contradiciton but is not. You can be subtley honest about your feelings for a person rather than overbearingly overt, or sneaky and dishonest.
As far as the age gap, to me it just makes me a bit weary because sometimes I question the motives of the person in question, but it doesn't make a pass from them altogether unwelcome, it just necessitates a certain finesse that I might not require of someone in another age bracket. (I tend to admire awkward youths but require a bit more grace in someone who is more mature.)
Probably not all that helpful, because it's just my point of view and this girl sounds slightly different than myself-- I tend to be more overt with my body language, if coy. (Coy is still different from non existant) But, I thought I'd put my piece in.
Honest Subtlety, Subtle Honesty
Date: 2006-11-22 01:04 am (UTC)That's what frustrates me about (a) my incompentence at reading people's body-language and (b) her exceptionally neutral body-language. I honestly have no idea at all whether she is or is not interested in me "in that way".
This can be a delicate thing...
She reads my journal. It might have been a delicate thing, but it sure ain't anymore. ("Can we spell 'idiot' boys and girls?")
As far as the age gap, to me it just makes me a bit weary because sometimes I question the motives of the person in question...
Well, at the very least, I am okay with my motives. Unless I am very drunk in the moment, I don't waste my time hanging out with people I don't respect in hopes of "getting some". If I don't expect to be able to enjoy talking with you over breakfast, I'm not going to try to get you into bed the night before.
And yes, coy is very different from non-existent. I think. Maybe I am so bad at reading body-language that I couldn't tell, come to think of it. I am suddenly remembering when I first realized Laura was interested in me: she had to literally jump on my lap and say, "I'm horny!"
You asked for answers, sorry
Date: 2006-11-22 12:03 am (UTC)Age is not the issue.
You said she told you she has a boyfriend. That is your answer. Simple. She is unavailable untill she spells out differently.
For example, if she gets involved with you and you are head over heels with her and she no longer "has" a bf, will you ever trust her? Will you ever believe in forever and always? Will you be surprised when she sits on the couch with another man?, etc.
Stop dating women that you don't stand a chance with for a true relationship.
I should say stop looking for love in all the wrong places. Go out with women- date, share dinner, movies but don't expect every date to be the beginning of a love affair that in reality you are making sure won't hapen. Are you really ready?
Think back over all your past beginnings. Did you ever have to plan it? Or did "it" just happen? Didn't you know that you could call her tomorrow and she was waiting for your call?
I don't date men that have a relationship in their lives cuz I learned the hard way that I don't want to be "the other woman" cuz there will always be "the other woman" even if it isn't me.
Re: You asked for answers, sorry
Date: 2006-11-22 01:16 am (UTC)You said she told you she has a boyfriend. That is your answer. Simple.
... she also said, "...she considers herself polyamorous." Which, I think adds a whole layer of complexity to an already delicate pastry. (Ahem.)
For example, if she gets involved with you and you are head over heels with her and she no longer "has" a bf, will you ever trust her?
That is a valid, and very important, question. If he doesn't know she is polyamorous, then, probably not.
I should say stop looking for love in all the wrong places. Go out with women- date, share dinner, movies but don't expect every date to be the beginning of a love affair that in reality you are making sure won't hapen. Are you really ready?
In my defence, I wasn't looking for love, right place or wrong. This is a person whose company I have enjoyed tremendously on fewer than a half-dozen occasions; and for whom I feel a sexual attraction.
The more I think about it (and, by the way, I haven't been obsessing, quite), the more I think I should have. It is the might-have-beens and what-ifs that I regret most when I look back on my life.
Think back over all your past beginnings. Did you ever have to plan it? Or did "it" just happen?
Almost always, "it" just happened. And by "just happened", I mean the women in question were forced - by my unbelievable cowardice/politeness (call it what you will) to make their interest explicit. Considering that, in our culture, men are expected to make the first move, I am probably lucky I'm not still a virgin.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-01-02 02:28 am (UTC)If you have to ask whether you should have made a move, then you shouldn't have made a move. If someone is interested they'll make it clear. Make sure to provide openings by flirting, and then go with your gut. When your gut is asking questions or doesn't have a clear answer, that's your brain trying to overrule or out-think your gut.
And even more convincing - the next day you still don't know. I've had situations where I didn't make a move, or sensed things were going well but didn't move on it, but I've always been able to see the clues afterwards (and slapped myself for being a fool). If you're still wondering whether you should have done something, then you did the right thing by leaving it alone.
Not Me
Date: 2007-01-03 01:17 am (UTC)Sadly, that just doesn't apply to me. Even after she had called me "pretty boy" in an email and invited herself over to dinner, had Laura not literally jumped on my lap I would not have been able to say whether or not she was interested in me.
I seem to lack what for most people seems to be a pretty basic ability to read other peoples' body language. A lack I am not at all grateful for.
Re: Not Me
Date: 2007-01-03 02:34 am (UTC)Re: Not Me
Date: 2007-01-07 11:34 pm (UTC)